Europe

[Tony Papard]

For several years JLL fans from all parts of the UK and Ireland and some from Europe

Dear pilF, as a pensioner (thats means your old and wise) you must learned in all those years that Wales, Ireland, Schotland and England are part of Europe, admit, you're the only ones driving on the wrong side of the road but still Europeans.
Please look at our friend Tony's profile.

This was in the Convention thread. I'm commenting here.

I strongly feel European, and would register as an EU citizen if this nationality was possible. I have the EU flag proudly displayed on my PC and in my window, I would stand for the EU anthem but certainly not for 'God Save The Queen', being a republican, and not really believing in God either.

So many good laws have come out of Brussels/Strasbourg to kick Britain into the 21st Century. Of course we should drive on the right, and adopt the Euro. And the EU should become a federal United States of Europe.

I love Europe, and we've had too many wars here to remain individual rival states in this day and age. Britain too was once a land of warring kingdoms.

But I have no strong views on whether Britain should become an autonomous state within a federal Europe or whether England, Scotland, Wales and possibly other regions who feel they are a nation should join separately. Northern Ireland should be reunited with Eire in a united Europe.

OK - now shoot me down in flames.

[Piet]

You're right Tony, in the beginning we weren't to happy with the Euro but looking at the countries that still has their own currency (UK and up north) I think we stand stronger having the Euro. I don't agree on all those poor countries coming in as Roemenia, Bulgeria etc. certainly not Turkey as it is only a small part European. Looking at those countries I will admit they need to be helped but what would it bring us, look at all those Polish workers that came in, in the coming time much Dutch people will lose their jobs because of the economic crisis while these guys work for less than the half of our salary, so don't get any new countries in the coming years.

[Tony Papard]

You're right Tony, in the beginning we weren't to happy with the Euro but looking at the countries that still has their own currency (UK and up north) I think we stand stronger having the Euro. I don't agree on all those poor countries coming in as Roemenia, Bulgeria etc. certainly not Turkey as it is only a small part European. Looking at those countries I will admit they need to be helped but what would it bring us, look at all those Polish workers that came in, in the coming time much Dutch people will lose their jobs because of the economic crisis while these guys work for less than the half of our salary, so don't get any new countries in the coming years.

Regarding immigrant workers from Poland and elsewhere, they shouldn't be employed in our countries below trade union rates, thus depriving our own workers of jobs.

Moreover, regarding Poland for example, they were so keen to set up Solidarity which eventually helped to bring down the Socialist (Communist) regime, so if wages are so low in Poland they need to fight for higher wages and better conditions back home thru the trade union movement. This is how we achieved our higher wages and better conditions.

As to how many countries should be included in Europe, I'm prepared to bring in more subject to the above conditions.

But of course, I also hope for other supra-national unions, maybe a more democratic Socialist federation to replace the old Soviet Union and the former Socialist states.

The main thing is, individual nation states increasingly will not be viable. We have to unite into larger federations in order to survive, whatever economic/political system we choose. These federations are not monolithic blocs, individual states can join or leave, or join other federations if they wish. Flexibility is the keyword.

The Confederate State of America, for instance, should have been allowed to break away from the USA. Similarly individual or groups of European nation states are allowed to leave the EU if they wish.

The three Baltic states of the former Soviet Union and the states of former Yugoslavia left those Socialist federations, which later disintegrated, and are now either members of or seek to join the EU.

I foresee this flexibility continuing. The EU is constantly changing, it is not set in stone for all time.

[martin bates]

You're right Tony, in the beginning we weren't to happy with the Euro but looking at the countries that still has their own currency (UK and up north) I think we stand stronger having the Euro. I don't agree on all those poor countries coming in as Roemenia, Bulgeria etc. certainly not Turkey as it is only a small part European. Looking at those countries I will admit they need to be helped but what would it bring us, look at all those Polish workers that came in, in the coming time much Dutch people will lose their jobs because of the economic crisis while these guys work for less than the half of our salary, so don't get any new countries in the coming years.

Regarding immigrant workers from Poland and elsewhere, they shouldn't be employed in our countries below trade union rates, thus depriving our own workers of jobs.

Moreover, regarding Poland for example, they were so keen to set up Solidarity which eventually helped to bring down the Socialist (Communist) regime, so if wages are so low in Poland they need to fight for higher wages and better conditions back home thru the trade union movement. This is how we achieved our higher wages and better conditions.

As to how many countries should be included in Europe, I'm prepared to bring in more subject to the above conditions.

But of course, I also hope for other supra-national unions, maybe a more democratic Socialist federation to replace the old Soviet Union and the former Socialist states.

The main thing is, individual nation states increasingly will not be viable. We have to unite into larger federations in order to survive, whatever economic/political system we choose. These federations are not monolithic blocs, individual states can join or leave, or join other federations if they wish. Flexibility is the keyword.

The Confederate State of America, for instance, should have been allowed to break away from the USA. Similarly individual or groups of European nation states are allowed to leave the EU if they wish.

The three Baltic states of the former Soviet Union and the states of former Yugoslavia left those Socialist federations, which later disintegrated, and are now either members of or seek to join the EU.

I foresee this flexibility continuing. The EU is constantly changing, it is not set in stone for all time.

goodness ! there's a lot of different themes going on there !
I've seen your website Tony & you have thought through many valid arguments there; but I'd disagree with lots as well; and some I'm not that bothered about to be honest; (paraphrasing Johnny Cash a bit, there !)so I don't intend to get into a discussion here. But I do feel sometimes we are keen to recognise others' rights to their own identitiy & national institutions while playing down,ignoring & even mocking our own. As a white,heterosexual,law abiding,working man I sometimes feel part of the only genuine minority group in this country! On the Polish question - the fact is like the immigrants of the past who kept our hospitals & transport system working while our people were lazing about killing off the great nationalised industires though poor production & massive wages (do people wish we had those industries now ???).... the Poles are doing the jobs that our own people do not want - not because they are cheaper. I know from my own small experience of employing part time workers. Out of my present workforce of 16, I have 1 Hungarian & recently 'lost' a Polish girl who went back home. She was vastly over-qualified for the job I gave her; but she was one of my best people & gave 100% commitment while she was here (about 10 months ).It may be an over-generalisation, but the 'work ethic' seems far greater among certain groups -and that's nothing to do with pay it's to do with taking pride in a job & doing it to the best of your ability.
(must admit your comments about the Confederate states are a bit baffling - would they have been allowed to keep slavery as well ? - if not what's the point of breaking away ; and how does that fit with your general theme of 'nation states' uniting together ?)

Martin.

[Tony Papard]

[quote="martin bates
goodness ! there's a lot of different themes going on there !
I've seen your website Tony & you have thought through many valid arguments there; but I'd disagree with lots as well; and some I'm not that bothered about to be honest; (paraphrasing Johnny Cash a bit, there !)so I don't intend to get into a discussion here. But I do feel sometimes we are keen to recognise others' rights to their own identitiy & national institutions while playing down,ignoring & even mocking our own. As a white,heterosexual,law abiding,working man I sometimes feel part of the only genuine minority group in this country! On the Polish question - the fact is like the immigrants of the past who kept our hospitals & transport system working while our people were lazing about killing off the great nationalised industires though poor production & massive wages (do people wish we had those industries now ???).... the Poles are doing the jobs that our own people do not want - not because they are cheaper. I know from my own small experience of employing part time workers. Out of my present workforce of 16, I have 1 Hungarian & recently 'lost' a Polish girl who went back home. She was vastly over-qualified for the job I gave her; but she was one of my best people & gave 100% commitment while she was here (about 10 months ).It may be an over-generalisation, but the 'work ethic' seems far greater among certain groups -and that's nothing to do with pay it's to do with taking pride in a job & doing it to the best of your ability.
(must admit your comments about the Confederate states are a bit baffling - would they have been allowed to keep slavery as well ? - if not what's the point of breaking away ; and how does that fit with your general theme of 'nation states' uniting together ?)

Martin.[/quote]

I still think foreign workers should not be allowed to work at below union rates over here. Our workers would be prepared to do these jobs at the right rates of pay. So many Poles came over here, they didn't have enough men in Poland to run the fire service in some places! They need to sort their own problems out. They got rid of the Socialist government which at least guaranteed full employment, now they've made their own bed they should lie in it, or rather sort it out. If they come over here, they should compete with our applicants at trade union rates.

Slavery was only one issue in the attempt by the CSA to break away fron the USA. Do we seriously believe that if the South had broken away they'd still have slaves today? Even South Africa has had to come in out of the cold. And the Southern States, as we know, have a quite different culture and musical heritage than the Northern and Western states.

All states have the right to break away if they wish, if that is the democratic choice of their population. All I'm saying is that the trend is towards bigger federations/units, with devolution or autonomy for member regions/states. That's what I would advocate, but I still recognize the right of individual states to go their own way if they wish, or for groups of states to leave a federation and form their own union.

It is really quite simple, its called democracy.

[martin bates]

[quote="martin bates
goodness ! there's a lot of different themes going on there !
I've seen your website Tony & you have thought through many valid arguments there; but I'd disagree with lots as well; and some I'm not that bothered about to be honest; (paraphrasing Johnny Cash a bit, there !)so I don't intend to get into a discussion here. But I do feel sometimes we are keen to recognise others' rights to their own identitiy & national institutions while playing down,ignoring & even mocking our own. As a white,heterosexual,law abiding,working man I sometimes feel part of the only genuine minority group in this country! On the Polish question - the fact is like the immigrants of the past who kept our hospitals & transport system working while our people were lazing about killing off the great nationalised industires though poor production & massive wages (do people wish we had those industries now ???).... the Poles are doing the jobs that our own people do not want - not because they are cheaper. I know from my own small experience of employing part time workers. Out of my present workforce of 16, I have 1 Hungarian & recently 'lost' a Polish girl who went back home. She was vastly over-qualified for the job I gave her; but she was one of my best people & gave 100% commitment while she was here (about 10 months ).It may be an over-generalisation, but the 'work ethic' seems far greater among certain groups -and that's nothing to do with pay it's to do with taking pride in a job & doing it to the best of your ability.
(must admit your comments about the Confederate states are a bit baffling - would they have been allowed to keep slavery as well ? - if not what's the point of breaking away ; and how does that fit with your general theme of 'nation states' uniting together ?)

Martin.

I still think foreign workers should not be allowed to work at below union rates over here. Our workers would be prepared to do these jobs at the right rates of pay. If they come over here, they should compete with our applicants at trade union rates.
[/quote]

perhaps I was not clear (but I think I was)...the people I'm talking about are doing jobs 'we' don't want & don't apply for; it's nothing to do with doing it for less money it's the same job & same pay. Only difference is they do it better, while too many of 'us' don't want a minimum wage job when they can get almost as much money sat on their arse, and all their bills paid as well (how many benefits have been cut in the recession? plently of working people have had their hours cut as well as others losing their jobs.) Anyway, my own fault, I said I didn't want a big discussion...so that's it from me on this one.

Martin.

[Piet]

In Poland our now the people from Oezbekistan etc, working for even less money then the Polish people, so where will it end?? And this should all be EU??, the Polish people here don't mind working 12 hours a day or more, they stay with a lot of people in old houses and save all their money for the home front, it has nothing to do with the dirty jobs we won't do, speaking hardly German (witch most Dutch will understand) nor English, those who speak English will go to England (Martin can confirm) I know Polish who work in the construction section and they try to tell us they can do it all, when it turns out they can do it all, only a tiny little part of it so all they do is useless and NO good.
Of course there was work for them, people let them paint the house to find out a few months later the paint comes off like dirt, away money and away Polish workers (of to another part of Holland)

[Piet]

No it has nothing to do with this topic but it's a troll

[Henry]

You're right Tony, in the beginning we weren't to happy with the Euro but looking at the countries that still has their own currency (UK and up north) I think we stand stronger having the Euro.

Well things go up and down,now when they have big trouble in greece i think at least we in sweden have a big advantage to not have the euro.