Talking about that Old Time Religion



Talking about that Old Time Religion

Postby wolfgangguhl » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:01 pm

Wolfgang:
> I agree with Preston.
>
> To compare Swaggart with Hitler is an exaggeration to say the least.

Richard:
The comparison is in people making excuses for people's bigoted views.
If people don't speak out against those who comdemn whole areas of
society because of their 'lifestyle', them the hatred becomes the norm
and things happen. I'm happy to throw Hitler in the mix.

Wolfgang:
> I agree with Richard that organised religion is responsible for a lot
> of trouble in this world, but that is religion which even goes as far
> a using the military to convince the world of their views. What has
> Swaggart done to deserve such an attack? If he is religios, it is
> business. If people wanna join him, it is their business. Not to my
> knowledge does he force anyone into his organisation.

Richard:
People aren't forced into religious beleif?
I know you're not naive enough to think that Wolfie!
I could go on about this for ages, but for the sake of the forum I'll
say no more. But I'm happy to debate the evilness of dirtbags like
Swaggart on the off topic section of the other forum.

Discuss!
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Postby wolfgangguhl » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:03 pm

Of course people are forced into religious belief worldwide, but does that also go for Swaggart's organisation? I know it is no longer the case in Germany. You can decide for yourself whether you want to be a member of the church, at least the two big ones leave the choice to you, Protestants and Catholics.
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Postby Richard Harvey » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:33 pm

wolfgangguhl wrote:Of course people are forced into religious belief worldwide, but does that also go for Swaggart's organisation? I know it is no longer the case in Germany. You can decide for yourself whether you want to be a member of the church, at least the two big ones leave the choice to you, Protestants and Catholics.


They don't give the choice to their children though, do they? Any child born into the Swaggart Church is told what to believe from an early age and expected to follow. I find this even more sinister than than the
Scientologists 'grooming' their prey.

I'd suggest any child expected to believe in god is being forced into a religion, and that's cruelty. Now you might think that's an extreme view, but it only seems so because we're the subject of christian countries, and have been subjected to the same mind control.

You're right though, we are a lot more civilized with regards to religion in Europe. The American religious right, particulary in the South, frighten me.

Shouldn't this be in 'off topic' (not that I care. . )
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Postby wolfgangguhl » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:57 pm

Well, in my case my parents took me to church when I was a baby boy. But when I got older they left the decision up to me. And if by then you decide to leave it, you should be free to do so.

I agree it is probably not right that babies have to join a church without being asked. On the other side, they are probably also not being asked whether they wanted to live in the USA, Europe, Asia, Africa or wherever. Life is not always fair. As long as you are allowed to leave the church at any time, it is fine with me.

Yes, it should be in the "Off topic"-section. Don't know why I posted it here, stupid me!
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Postby peterchecksfield » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:05 pm

I'm keeping out of this, as I know it will end in tears...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qctcPdVPldk :cry:
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Postby Richard Harvey » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:06 pm

wolfgangguhl wrote: On the other side, they are probably also not being asked whether they wanted to live in the USA, Europe, Asia, Africa or wherever. Life is not always fair. As long as you are allowed to leave the church at any time, it is fine with me.



Look at ot this way then. If someone chooses to leave the Church when they are 12 years old, ,or 13, or whatever. . then what was the point in teaching them all about it in the first place? One the child realises it's all rubbish, shouldn't they then have the right to feel a bit annoyed they've been given false information, and threatened with eternal damnation since they could remember?

What you are saying is 'it's okay by me to lie to kids as long as they're not forced to believe the lie later in life'.
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Postby Richard Harvey » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:19 pm

wolfgangguhl wrote:I agree it is probably not right that babies have to join a church without being asked. On the other side, they are probably also not being asked whether they wanted to live in the USA, Europe, Asia, Africa or wherever. !


But thay have to live somewhere to exist, yet they don't have to believe in anything supernatural to exist, do they?
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Postby peterchecksfield » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:30 pm

Richard Harvey wrote:Look at ot this way then. If someone chooses to leave the Church when they are 12 years old, ,or 13, or whatever. . then what was the point in teaching them all about it in the first place? One the child realises it's all rubbish, shouldn't they then have the right to feel a bit annoyed they've been given false information, and threatened with eternal damnation since they could remember?

What you are saying is 'it's okay by me to lie to kids as long as they're not forced to believe the lie later in life'.


A bit like Santa Claus...

The one difference of course is that the adults know they are lying about Santa Claus, but they feel that they're right when teaching their religion (& just maybe they are right?!). So why shouldn't a parent teach a child what they think is right or wrong?
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Small comment

Postby catmom68 » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:39 pm

When I was small, I was allowed to attend many different churches..and there wasn't alot of TV religion programs either...I remember asking questions at home and not getting any sort of a straight answer..they simply didn't know...lol
One in particular I remember asking was about the Jewish people...My response was that they were God's chosen people, didn't believe in Christ and think they are going to heaven first...lolol Ignorance reigns...I had farmers and river people heritage, don't forget...They wouldn't dream of that statement now because of all the availble sources of information and communications.

I think the T.V. has alot to do with the "volunteered" brainwashing, preying on the uneducated and uninformed. The increase in this method of influencing folks is staggering here. I know that we have about 10 religious stations alone on the dish system..That doesn't count all of the rest on the normal stations.... I suppose back in the horse and buggy days those traveling revival preachers were considered just as dangerous....if you watch any cowboy movies, anyway...lolol
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Postby Richard Harvey » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:44 pm

peterchecksfield wrote:A bit like Santa Claus...
The one difference of course is that the adults know they are lying about Santa Claus, but they feel that they're right when teaching their religion (& just maybe they are right?!). So why shouldn't a parent teach a child what they think is right or wrong?


Because they are most likely wrong.

There's no more evidence for Santa than there is for a omniprescent sky god. But because the parents have been taught to believe, they think it's right to teach their kids. It's on-going. If it doesn't stop, it won't.

And, it fucks kids up.
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Dawn of a New Age?

Postby Tony Papard » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:47 pm

I think infant baptism in the Christian faith is wrong. I was baptised in a Greek-Orthodox cathedral, my father was on the church committees and gave a lot of money to the Church in Cyprus, but was a lifelong atheist. He acted hypocritically to gain influence. In Cyprus, belonging to the Church was like belonging to the Communist Party in the Soviet Union. You had to do it, and pay lip service to what it preached, in order to further your career, etc..

I was not brought up as a Greek-Orthodox, but in the Anglican and Methodist churches, as my parents separated when I was very young. I was confirmed at the tender age of about 13. Far too young to decide on such matters as religion, in my opinion.

Only a year or two later did I start having doubts, and became an atheist.

So indoctrination of children is wrong, but very difficult to stop. Naturally parents will want to teach their children what they believe is right, be it a certain religion or their political beliefs. Socialists sent their kids to Socialist Sunday Schools and encouraged them to join the Woodcraft Folk (the Cooperative movement's youth section).

However schools should be unbiased and teach about all religions and also humanism/atheism.

The worst parts of the world for religious bigotry are some of the Islamic states, the American Deep South, Israel, etc.. It takes brave people in some of these places to defy the local religion, and in some cases results in the death penalty.

As for Swaggart, the Lewises, etc. I feel that the Assembly of God/Pentecostal religion is, or was, so very strict that it is impossible for any human to live up to their standards: no sex before marriage, no extra-marital sex at all (including gay sex of course), no smoking, no drinking, no going to the theater, no going to the cinema, no make-up for women (let alone men!) Many of these things I experienced myself the short time I was a member of this church, till they slung me out for being gay. People were standing up week after week 'confessing' they'd once committed the sin of going to the cinema or smoking, before being 'saved'.

No wonder the Lewises and Swaggart were so fucked up! No wonder they married at 12, 14, and 15, or married 13 year old cousins. Sex outside marriage, they were told, would send them to Hell and eternal damnation. Swaggart went middle-age crazy no doubt, and temptation got the better of him after a life of monogamy presumably.

Then there are all those Catholic priests expected to be celibate all their lives, and we have all heard what happens all too often there with choirboys around.

Organized religion is probably the cause of more evil, wars, torture, genocide, hatred and trouble in the world than anything else, including politics. Yet how do you stop it? How can we consign some of these evil ancient religious texts to museums where they belong? (I include much of The Bible in this with its encouragement to rape, murder and pillage, its endorsement of slavery and the subjugation of women, condemnation of gays, etc.).

My hope is with the new enlightenment coming about as a result of scientific knowledge, quantum mechanics, New Age spirituality which is not dogmatic, and increased interest and evidence for all things paranormal including survival of death.

Because the new knowledge is based on evidence, not on ancient religious texts and creeds drawn up by men to subjugate others (the opiate of the people which Karl Marx wrote about), it is constantly changing and not dogmatic.

I now believe only in what I regard as backed up by evidence, not in what I was taught to believe by parents or others. Once a Christian, then an atheist, I now describe myself as a non-religious Survivalist (or Spiritualist if you like.)

More and more atheists and agnostics, including doctors and scientists, are adopting similar views. I think the 21st Century, if nothing else, will finally consign organized religions to the scrapheap of history. But before this can happen, Einsteinian science needs a radical shake-up. It is seriously flawed. Even Albert Einstein himself realized this before his death.

Quantum theorists like Ronald Pearson, BSc have revised and moved on from Einstein's theories, and these exciting new theories and mathematical formulae support many things now considered by orthodox science to be paranormal.

So both organized religion and orthodox science are, in my opinion and that of an increasing number of people, due for a massive shock and shake-up. People like Swaggart and what they preach are on the way out.

There is a lot of hypocrisy in what they preach anyway. Quite apart from the prostitute incident, Swaggart's home is opulent and luxurious. So much for preaching: 'It is easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven.' Or Jesus advice to the rich man: 'Give away what you have to the poor.'

Who wants one of Swaggart's luxurious grand pianos? (I do quite like some of his piano playing and singing though, but not his sermons).
Last edited by Tony Papard on Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby peterchecksfield » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:49 pm

Richard Harvey wrote:And, it fucks kids up.


I'm not sure I entirely agree with that. Surely most Christians are no more "fucked up" than those people who believe in nothing at all?
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Re: Dawn of a New Age?

Postby peterchecksfield » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:51 pm

Tony Papard wrote:Once a Christian, then an atheist, I now describe myself as a non-religious Survivalist (or Spiritualist if you like.)


Me too.

Probably.
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Re: Small comment

Postby Richard Harvey » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:57 pm

catmom68 wrote:I think the T.V. has alot to do with the "volunteered" brainwashing, preying on the uneducated and uninformed.


Which is why it's important to discuss these things. I'm waiting for the first but we should respect other people's beliefs comment. Like as if no-one should ever stand up and say "hey, you're all wrong, what you're doing is all wrong. . "

What if I decided to believe the world was made of cream cheese and we'd all die tommorrow if we didn't spend at least half hour a day with a corrot up our arse. Would it be right to teach that to my kids, (remember, I believe it's for their good). . and should my views be respected the same as I'm told to respect the beliefs of someone who thinks women should cover up all their flesh, or thinks gay people will burn in hell
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Re: Dawn of a New Age?

Postby Richard Harvey » Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:16 am

Tony Papard wrote:So indoctrination of children is wrong, but very difficult to stop. Naturally parents will want to teach their children what they believe is right, be it a certain religion or their political beliefs. Socialists sent their kids to Socialist Sunday Schools and encouraged them to join the Woodcraft Folk (the Cooperative movement's youth section).

The worst parts of the world for religious bigotry are some of the Islamic states, the American Deep South, Israel, etc.. It takes brave people in some of these places to defy the local religion, and in some cases results in the death penalty..


Excellent post.

It's hard not to pass your politics on to your kids I suppose, but at least that's something you've learned yourself, based on real evidence and life's experiences.

How do we stop it? (organised religion). We keep talking, telling people there is morality outside the rules of religion.
With Richard Dawkins and others, here in the UK, there's a new wave of healthy sceptisism. Over in the States though, it seems they are getting more godly, if current statistics are to be believed.
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